- How Employee Engagement is more than a buzz word, and how you and your team can build authentic engagement vs, falling into the “ping pong table trap” (3:06)
- Moving from one-day team-building events to on-going efforts to building teams that are empowered (15:51)
- Creating a succession plan that goes beyond planning the next role for a specific person to planning overall organizational development to build agile teams that support future growth. (24:28)
Listen to Episode 4 to learn more about building your team with the help of a Team Assimilation
Listen to Episode 2
Luis: Welcome to Building Teams with TEAMES & CO. I'm Luis Wilson. In today's episode, I sit down with Tracy Eames to discuss the leadership fallacy of oversimplifying. Hi, Tracy. Good to be with you.
Tracy: Thanks, Luis. Great to be here today.
Luis: Thanks. For today's episode, I know we're going to be focusing on three main areas that organizations have a tendency of oversimplifying. First is employee engagement. Second, team building. Third, succession planning.
Tracy: That's correct, Luis. Today we're really excited to talk about this because as leaders we're often really busy and we mentioned this on the last podcast. Sometimes we're sitting in meetings all day and we're still trying to achieve results and still trying to develop our teams. Really important things like employee engagement, and team building, succession planning sometimes get boiled down and oversimplified, and that can actually lead to us moving in the wrong direction on some of these items versus really helping empower our team. We're really excited about it and we'll jump in.
Luis: Okay, great. Without delay, let's get started. Let's first talk about how managers oversimplify employee engagement and how have you seen that play out?
Tracy: Of course, first, let me start off by saying employee engagement is incredibly important. I think this has become a buzzword, but it really truly is an important piece of the puzzle within our organizations. We want our teams to be excited and to be energized about what they're doing. We want them to be engaged in their work and see how that translates into our strategy as an organization. This is a really key piece of our role as a leader, but again, unfortunately it gets distilled down into maybe a couple of action items versus being a way of leading. I think this is a common trap we fall into as leaders. We know we have a lot of things to do, so we make almost like a checklist and we do some of them but we don't do them consistently and we don't do them each day.
Sometimes if you do a couple of these, "checklist items," they actually don't bolster employee engagement. They detract from employee engagement and they make your team members feel like you're not listening. We could talk a little bit about this and dive into it, but that's really the trap around employee engagement.
Luis: I see. Leaders are finding themselves looking at this more as action items as opposed to a whole effort of improving on employee engagement, but instead just checking items off a list and moving on. What are some of those items that maybe managers zero in on and boil down employee engagement into these few items?
Tracy: I think one of the common things that we do as leaders, and this is great, we want to learn from each other, right. We hear a success story and we're like, oh, that worked at company X or company Y. Let's try it at my company. That can be good if it's put into a broader context, but again, we really have to take those extra steps and sometimes we don't take them. It can translate into a situation where employees are wondering why this is the approach. I'll give you an example hopefully we can all resonate with. When we hear employee engagement, a lot of times we'll think about ping pong tables in the break room. You might think that's a funny example but I've seen it and I hear it a lot from folks who I speak to all the time when we're doing team interviews at the beginning of an engagement. It might not be a ping pong table, but we'll use that as an example here today.
There'll be a meeting, some company meeting or team meeting, and the leader will say, oh, we're really focused on employee engagement. We want to make sure our employees are having fun at work and they're engaged in their work. Then the ping pong table will show up. This is great in terms of, it's nice that the leader is thinking, oh, I want my teams to have fun and I want this to be like a really great culture where people feel like they can enjoy themselves, but it doesn't always translate that way to employees. What happens is after a few weeks, employees will be like, nobody's actually playing ping pong. It's really strange. You as a leader might be noticing, hey, nobody's playing ping pong. Why aren't they playing ping pong? This can happen for a few different reasons, right? One, you might have employees who are saying, I don't actually really like ping pong, so I'm not going to play.
Two, they'd maybe want to play ping pong, but they secretly think like, should I be playing ping pong? Will it look weird to my coworkers or my boss if I'm taking a break and playing ping pong? Will people think I'm not doing my work? That's one of the number one fears. If I do take advantage of this, will it seem like I'm not dedicated to my work? Then three, they might want to play the ping pong game or they might want to do whatever the other benefits are that you've offered but they just don't have time. They're like, I could do this but my schedule is so packed. I really can't take advantage of this. Now at the end of the day, you have this big announcement that you've made about employee engagement and you've done this one item, but nothing around that item within your culture is supporting people using that benefit, and therefore it becomes disengaging.
Because people are like, well, you didn't really listen to us because I don't really like ping pong. They haven't really helped us solve these other challenges that we have. This becomes a point of contention versus a point of engagement.
Luis: I see. I can personally relate with that example, Tracy. I know that I've seen the infamous ping pong table pop up in a work area that we had at one of the research labs. I have felt those exact same feelings. Hey, should I be playing? Is this something that's going to be perceived in a certain way? Then also having the challenge of not having the time for it. Okay. Leaders oversimplify and maybe focus in on doing something that perhaps worked for another company like getting a ping pong table to drive employee engagement. Instead of zeroing in and oversimplifying and just hitting these checklist items, what are some maybe key areas or key items that leaders should focus on to truly drive employee engagement over the longterm?
Tracy: Yeah, of course. I think the biggest thing here again is really taking the time to make it a part of your culture. First and foremost, you want to ask team members what matters to them. What actually will make them feel more engaged? You want to start to build that dialogue with people and you want to also make sure that as you're building that dialogue and you're receiving feedback that you're doing something with the feedback, right? We've all been in this situations where our leader or manager asks us for feedback and then nothing happens. How does that feel? It doesn't feel great. Right?
Tracy: I mean, you're like, okay, I spent all this time giving my feedback but nothing happened with it. Again, as leaders, you can preface this. We obviously can't do everything, so you can preface it by saying, hey, listen, we want to get feedback. We're not going to be able to take action on every single item but we do want to make sure as a team we're having these discussions and that we're prioritizing and that we're hearing everybody's ideas. Then as a team also, making sure we choose what we can move forward with. Then you have an idea of, okay, well, what would help our teams be more engaged? One of the things that really helps engagement, and if you have Googled what drives employee engagement, you'd get a million different reasons.
The reason for that is because every team is different, which again, makes point one, having the conversation is so important because you want to make sure you're doing things that really resonate with your team and with your organization. One of the things that we find a lot is that building that transparency, building that culture of feedback, asking for that input builds that dialogue that then prevent situation number two, which is if I take advantage of whatever this benefit is, will I be perceived as not doing my job or not getting my work done? If you've built this transparency and you've been having this dialogue and you're the one actually participating, so I've played a couple of games of ping pong with my team members.
I've used it in a way to connect with them, then that's great. You're really reinforcing the fact that this is important to your culture, this is important to your organization and it builds that reinforcement. Then third, a ping pong table or another fun activity, those are great. They really create a sense of camaraderie, but we want to be also building a shared purpose and we want to make sure our team members feel valued in their day-to-day life. A big piece of that is as an employee I want to know that what I do every day at work contributes to the overall organization and our success. While fun activities are really important and they do drive engagement on a certain level, we also want to make sure that we're taking the stress out of all the other parts of our team members' days. We want to make sure that we're supporting them as a leader to decrease their friction points. We're helping them manage situations on cross-functional teams.
We're helping take obstacles out. We're having regular meetings with them to understand their goal progress and help them in areas that maybe they need some more support. We're celebrating their successes. Again, if you want to have fun activities, tie it to something that's been a team success so it really becomes relevant at that point, right? We as a team achieved X, we're going to go celebrate X. This is a really reinforcing idea that their input and their efforts matter within the organization and that you as a leader are recognizing them as a team member. Those are some of the ways that you can start to, again, take these discrete items that might become a checklist, so to say, and build them into your daily work cadence. Then therefore, employee engagement becomes more of a daily thing versus a one-off activity or a one-off benefit, so to say.
Luis: I see. You're not discouraging against those perhaps individually discrete items to drive employee engagement, but saying instead, those are pieces that fall into an ongoing effort that can really, as we're describing it now, be fit into three key areas, right? That's first, understanding what matters to your team by having those key conversations with them. Then fostering an environment where you have transparency and the value of the team members input is valued as well. It starts to build trust. Then third, making sure that they feel valued and that they're able to tie back their actions, their input, and their everyday work back to the overall mission. Right? So they're feeling valued as a team member and their work is being valued as well by their organization. I did want to ask you, it seems like a lot of that comes from that first step of being successful and being able to collect feedback in an honest way, and then being able to act on it or address it if it can't be acted on it.
I wonder if there's a leader that's a little bit in a rut, or perhaps it's a little bit harder for them to solicit feedback, do you have a tactical way that somebody can break the cycle and start getting some honest feedback from their team?
Tracy: Yeah, of course. I think you're right, I think a lot of things start with that first step of building that feedback loop. It's something that can really help you understand where your individual team members are at, where the whole team is at. It's going to help you as a leader understand how you can help your team members. If you're finding it challenging, maybe you're a new leader, there's ways that you can build a cadence with your team or restart a cadence with your team. One of the key pieces is, do you have meetings with your one-on-one team members, right? You want to make sure that you're meeting with your one-on-one team members and you're keeping them. Sometimes when we get busy as leaders, we'll start to cancel one-on-one meetings, it makes our team members actually feel like they're not important within our day.
We want to consider we're keeping those meetings, that we're really valuing and honoring their time, that we're coming prepared to those one-on-ones, and we're following up on their feedback. It's not an overnight, again, not an overnight check mark but it really becomes as you do it, it builds more and more trust. Yes, my leader keeps showing up, my leader has our goals with them, my leader has thought about these things. They come prepared with questions. They're taking the actions after our meeting to actually help reduce some of these friction points or challenges that I had. That starts to build that trust and camaraderie. We're virtual right now, so the in-person feedback box doesn't work as well because we're not all in the same location all the time, but you can even set up a centralized process where you say, hey, once a week, somebody from the team is going to email me all the team's feedback.
It's de-identified. If somebody has a question, I know that this week's feedback is coming from person X or person Y, so I don't think their feedback specifically. Maybe there's a centralized email box that this can go to, where people can share their feedback in a de-identified way and then address it at the team meeting. Right. If you've collected team feedback anonymously, and you want to say at the team meeting, hey, this week we got these three comments. The first comment was that maybe our team meetings are too short. I wanted to talk and get your feedback about that. The other comment was you feel like you don't know what's going on with our change in strategy, that you don't really feel like there's a really strong understanding on the team. Or maybe you heard from one of the other team members that they have one piece of information and you don't.
First and foremost, I apologize if I didn't share that information to everybody at the same time. Two, I want to have a conversation with all of you at the same time around how can I best get you that information so you feel like you're informed. It's not about coming to the meeting with the answers to the questions, but it's really coming to the meeting saying, hey, let's have a conversation about this as a team and figure out a way that we can solve this for us. My one caveat, just to be clear is sometimes in this informal feedback you might get things that need to be addressed one-on-one. In those situations, do take that offline, right? If somebody says, hey, I'm identifying myself and this message is from so-and-so and I really want to have a conversation with you. That, you want to have a conversation one-on-one with them, right?
You want to respect their request to have that conversation one-on-one and not bring it to the full team. Throughout that conversation, the two of you might decide, hey, this would be beneficial for the team. Then you can agree on how you're going to raise that, right. Whether you're going to still raise it in a de-identified way, or if you're going to raise it as the idea of that specific team member. But again, you want to have those conversations and really respect people's request to have a one-on-one conversation.
Luis: Thank you, Tracy. That's very helpful. It seems like there's a priority in making sure that you are showing to the team members that that time you have set up with them is valued, being consistent with them if you have those one-on-one set up, and getting those set up, right. You're showing them that it's important to you as a leader by dedicating the time. Then also, thank you for sharing the tactics in collecting anonymous feedback, while leading difficult teams or making the adjustment right now, and the ways that folks can do that. Great. Thank you for that. Next, I wanted to move on to our second area that organizations can sometimes oversimplify, and that's team building. How have you seen team building be oversimplified?
Tracy: Yeah. For me, it becomes, again, a one-day event versus a process. Right? There's actually a really specific reason why we've called this podcast Building Teams versus team building. Because a lot of times when you talk about team building, it's this one-day event that you and your team all go to to have fun and build camaraderie versus building teams which is an ongoing process where you and your team are working together to develop processes and procedures and guidelines and guardrails to help you be more successful as a team. Right? Those are two very different approaches. One is a point in time and one is a process. It's not to say that again, the point in time is important, right? As a team, we should be celebrating.
We should be taking time to connect with each other, taking time to build camaraderie. But sometimes if that's the only thing you do, again, your team feels leaving like, I don't really feel important and valued right now. This wasn't the thing I needed. I needed the actual process of developing some of these processes and helping me through my day.
Luis: I see. The oversimplification in team building harkens back to the oversimplification of team engagement. Seeing it as a discrete action or one-time task to achieve as opposed to incorporating it, having it be part of your ongoing process. What's your point of view or your perspective on how leaders can focus to drive better team development?
Tracy: Yeah, of course. I mean, to your point, again, there's a real role for one-day event. I'll go through a little bit about some of the pitfalls of them and then how you can leverage that to actually build a team. Oftentimes when we think as a leader, and again, leaders are trying to do the right thing. They take it from the approach of, oh, I heard from one of my colleagues that they did this team building event and the team had a lot of fun. People are usually coming at this from the perspective of, I want to help my team but I don't have time. Because I don't have time, I'm going to do this discrete event that has a time length defined, right. Maybe it's a half day, maybe it's a full day, but it's a defined set of time that me and my team can go out and build camaraderie. This is great.
The idea of it is great if all the other pieces are in place. What happens sometimes on these events, and we've all been a part of them, right? You're like, you get the invite and you're like, okay, I'm really behind but I have to take a half day out of the office to go do this ropes course. I don't really like ropes courses. Even if I did like ropes courses, I have so much work to do. If some of the team is already getting there feeling like, I just really don't have time. Then the other part of the team is like, oh, this is going to be so exciting. Maybe there's a few people who make connections and they have a fun time with each other and that helps build camaraderie, also great. But for the team members who maybe are more introverted or don't like that specific activity, they're feeling like, ugh, my team leader doesn't care about me and didn't even ask my opinion if I wanted to do this type of event.
Even if some of the day was fun, sometimes the team comes back to the office feeling like, oh, now I just have more work to do and I'm a day behind doing it. Nothing in my day has gotten easier because of this event. Yes, we took a pause but it was just that, a pause. Now we're going to go back on Tuesday and we're all just going to feel as overwhelmed as we did last Friday. Again, similar to employee engagement, have that conversation with your team, right? You want to ask them like, if you want to do an event, what do you want to do? Right. That solves for the point in time piece of the puzzle. When you're thinking about building a team over time, what we talk about a lot at TEAMES & CO is you want to build aligned and empowered teams, right? That's a more of an over time development process. You want to make sure your team has aligned goals.
You want to make sure as a leader you're helping improve the process of how they work together and reducing their friction points and reducing their stress during the day. Then you also want to set up what we call guardrails in terms of how can your team know what they can be responsible for, how they can move projects ahead if they can't get ahold of you. Right? Those three things really help us build teams over time and help them be more successful.
Luis: I see. Again, moving from that point in time into making it more of an ongoing process where the focus is really making aligned and empower teams. You mentioned aligning of the goals as being the first priority there, then secondly, moving to improving the processes and removing any friction points that your team might be facing as a leader. Then also making sure that they have guidelines and guardrails. Could you talk a little more about what you mean by guidelines and guardrails?
Tracy: Yeah, of course. Again, this all starts with the aligned goals. Every time we work with organizations, we make sure that we're aligning what the goals are. This usually happens around aligning around the customer. That's the first point of alignment. Now, some organizations have this in place, which is why I say this is what usually happens. If you don't have it in place, it's our first step with you is to make sure we all have a shared understanding of who the customer is and what's valuable to them. Then we can align that strategy, our strategy to helping achieve that memorable customer experience. From there, we can align all of our goals. We have a set of company goals and then the team goals that support the company goals. Then my individual goals that would support the team goals that would support the organizational goals.
We really create that line of sight from me as an individual to the overall company success. Now, once you have that in place, everybody knows what they're supposed to be doing. We're all pulling in the same direction. You still might have those situations where you as a leader are in meetings or you're traveling, or there's some reason why you're not available to your team member. Right. That happens to all of us. We're busy as leaders. What we talk about is guidelines and guardrails. Helping your team understand, hey, within your role, here's what you're responsible for and here's what you have complete ownership over. Here's where maybe I would want to be engaged in the process. This helps new leaders, especially, or folks who are taking on new responsibilities really know when you want to be a part of a conversation or where you think you could be helpful versus where they can run on their own and really own that.
An example of this might be, hey, if you're going to take on leadership of this cross-functional team, that's awesome. I'd like to be involved in the beginning and just outlining who should be there to make sure we have the right group of people. After that, I want you to make an agenda. We can go over those agendas in your team meeting, but you'll run the meeting. You'll circulate all the followup notes. They might come back to you and say, hey, I really need to get in touch with this senior leader in another part of the business. Can you help me connect with that person? Of course, as a leader, I'm happy to do that. But they really have that autonomy to really be able to know what they should be proceeding with and then where they might need to come back to you to ask questions.
You might say, hey, as long as you're achieving these three goals and you're working towards them within this context, that's great. If for some reason this changes or the team comes up with a new idea, I'd like you to come back and I'd like to discuss that at one of our one-on-one meetings before we change direction just so we're all aligned. Again, if you're in meetings all day, they can be proceeding without you. They can be working on the goal, they can be achieving the strategy, and then they know when they can come back to you for help or when they might need to come back and get greater clarity around specific pieces.
Luis: I see. We want to make sure that right from the get-go the first step that we take in TEAMES & CO is to make sure that everybody is aligned around the customer experience and they know what's valuable for them. Then making sure that you're improving the processes, removing any friction points they can have, and then those guardrails and guidelines. You want to make sure that the employees have clarity so they can go ahead and proceed and perhaps not be waiting outside of your meeting to take direction or understand what they can take decisions on. Right. So they can have clarity around that. Thank you. Then the third area that I want to move into that organizations can sometimes oversimplify, we've talked about employee engagement, team building. Now I want to move into succession planning. Have you seen that be oversimplified before?
Tracy: Yeah. Succession planning is one of those things that is really important to an organization. As you're looking to grow your organization, you're going to need to have a plan for all of the roles within your organization, right? People are going to be able to take on more responsibility. There are going to be some people who choose to leave your organization and that's okay. But when they choose to leave, you should have a plan for filling their role or adjusting that role to make sure that it's aligning to your strategy. You're also going to have new people join. You want to have make sure you have a clear development plan for those folks, that they know how they can progress within the organization, how they can build a career with your company, and how they can be successful.
Succession planning is not, again, not a point in time. Sometimes we think about succession planning like who's going to take over for the CEO. That's 100% important, but it's also important to have a plan for your broader organization so you know and your team knows how they can develop. It's really not just a one role or a one point in time, but it really is about how as an organization are we going to keep moving people into greater responsibilities, keep developing their skills, and over time, make sure that we have the right roles in place, right? Not every role will stay forever a role. Somebody might be leading a specific initiative and when they move on to a bigger role, we might say, hey, that initiative has closed so we don't need somebody to take on that role, but we will need somebody to take on this different role once that initiative closed. Because if this initiative is successful, then this new initiative becomes the next priority. As leaders, we want to be constantly looking at the horizon saying what's next for our organization and how do we develop our team members into being able to take on those responsibilities?
Luis: I see. When you're talking about succession planning, you're not just talking about backfilling an executive, and of course, like you said, very important, but also considering what the needs of their organization are now, what they could be in the future. Bringing that to bear when you're planning on employees' individual development as well as the new roles that will be needed in the future. I wanted to ask you, is there specific tangible steps you can take to support a leader? Let's just say, you've outlined a plan to individually develop somebody to backfill into a leadership role and now they've gotten there and they're are first time leader, how can you make that transition easier for them or help them be more successful?
Tracy: That's a really critical question, Luis, and I'm glad you asked it because a lot of times as leaders, we actually put the onus back on our team member to be successful. We say things like, oh, they should hit the ground running. Everybody's like, well, what does that mean? Right. I mean, I want to be successful but nobody clarifies what success looks like in a new role. Sometimes unfortunately, as a leader, this even becomes a blame game, right? We've all heard about the infamous Peter principle where people are promoted because they're successful in a role until they're all of a sudden promoted almost "too far" and then they're not successful in that role. That becomes a blame on the employee or on the team member themselves like, oh, I guess we shouldn't have promoted them into that role. They weren't able to, again, hit the ground running and be successful.
We don't look back at ourselves as leaders. I think the most important and the most critical piece to any team member being successful in their next role is us as their leader, right? We're the mentor, we're the coach. A big piece of our job is to make sure that we're taking the steps to help them be successful. Again, this starts at the very beginning. Succession planning has the word right in there. The first step is planning, right? We don't want to skip that step. We want to make sure to your point, great point, all of our team members have individual development plans. We've had the conversation about how they want to develop, what kind of roles sound interesting to them. We've also shared with them where we think the strategy is leading and what might be some possible opportunities.
This might not be a direct line, right? You might start in marketing and then say, hey, I actually eventually one day want to become the VP of marketing. Well, that actually might involve you taking a leadership role over in operations or in sales to understand a different part of the business. So when you do take on that senior leadership role, you understand how your team can most effectively work across the organization, right? It's not always a direct path. Sometimes there are some steps across the way, but that doesn't come and that doesn't happen without the plan. Then to your point, this is an exciting day. We've promoted somebody, we've given them more responsibility. We want to make sure as a leader, we're setting up a series of meetings to be really present for them and available during that transition.
First and foremost, we want to communicate to the organization that there's been a promotion or that somebody is taking on new responsibilities so that way everybody in the organization knows, oh, okay, I should go to that person for these questions. Again, you're empowering them to take on that leadership role and be a part of the meetings they should be a part of and the communications they should be a part of. You want to make sure that you're setting up regular cadence of meetings and maybe this means an additional meeting with them. You want to make sure they know what the strategy is, how they're going to set team goals. Maybe they've never set team goals before, and that's not a bad thing for them. They just have never done it. As leaders, I think that a lot of times we assume that people know how to do these things, but we don't actually take the time to teach them how to take these steps.
We really want to make sure that we're taking all the steps with them. Do you know how to run a team meeting? Here's how you would make an agenda. Here's how you gather feedback from your team. Again, this doesn't have to be formalized sit down trainings every week, but just really having the dialogue with them, understanding what is challenging, what challenges are they facing? Then how do we help them solve them? It's an ongoing dialogue and an ongoing coaching process with them. Then last but not least, we don't want to skip the ongoing communications with the rest of the team. Oftentimes when somebody is promoted or they get new responsibilities, you might have another team member come up to you and ask, why wasn't I given that opportunity? This is a really honest question. It's a great question, right? It's an opportunity for you as a leader then to have another conversation with that person and say, okay, let's take after your individual development plan, let's understand.
I want to understand, maybe, this is new to me. This is a new conversation. Do you want to update your individual development plan? Maybe it helps you understand where that team member wants to grow and develop more. It gives you that opportunity to have that conversation with the person and re-engage them around development. Development plans like everything else should live and be a living and breathing document. You want to be talking to them about your team members constantly, but also at these key points when people bring up the conversation, you want to make sure that you're really engaging and following through in that conversation. That again, continues to reinforce it as a leader, you're really tied into their development. It also might open up an opportunity for you as a leader to be able to fill a position that you wouldn't have been able to fill before, right?
You might be in a leadership meeting and if you know how all of your team members want to develop and their capabilities and their skills, when a new role comes up that maybe you didn't even know about, you can quickly say to your boss and to your managers, hey, can we have a conversation about one of my team members who might be a really good fit for this role? That prepares you to be able to better support your team and better suggest when there might be another opportunity for them. Even if it's not within your own team, but within the organization to really contribute at a higher level.
Luis: I see, thank you. It sounds like first and foremost, the priorities are to plan, plan, plan, be proactive about your succession planning. It's right in the name of it, right? Be purposeful about it and have an eye towards the future. Then to make sure that once you do promote somebody and you have them develop into this new role, that you're empowering them. You're giving them the tools they need. You're creating a forum, maybe perhaps to communicate with them in an informal way, to coach them on new skills that they might need as a leader. Then third, making sure that the communication is happening between that leader and their new team members, right? Maybe use some of those as an opportunity to discuss development planning and see where those team members not just are currently, but where they are looking to go in the future and using that information to look for opportunities within the organization.
We've talked about the oversimplification of employee engagement, how we can move from a point in time in there into a process similar to the oversimplification of team building. We just finished up with succession planning. Thank you for sharing that, Tracy. Really appreciate today's episode.
Tracy: No, thank you. This has been fun and that I look forward to an ongoing dialogue with our listeners. If they have any questions, they can obviously reach out to us on social media and keep the conversation going. Thank you for continuing your efforts on the podcast and we look forward to next week.