- What is the enneagram? (2:16)
- Catherine shares how the Enneagram can help individuals build self awareness (8:07)
- Learn how the Enneagram can help teams build better processes and communication (10:30)
- What are the 9 Enneagram types and how they can come to life (20:06)
- Catherine shares more about her Journey and her book “Everything Is Going to Be Okay!: From the Projects to Harvard to Freedom” (26:50)
- If you want to read Catherine’s book Everything Is Going to Be Okay!: From the Projects to Harvard to Freedom, it is available at Amazon.com. It is a lovely combination of her personal story with insights about the enneagram woven throughout.
- Learn more about the Enneagram at The Enneagram Institute
- Learn more about how TEAMES & CO builds effective and empowered teams that deliver results at https://teamesandco.com/teams/organizational-design
- Follow TEAMES & CO on Facebook LinkedIn, Twitter (@teamesandco) and Instagram (@teamesandco)
- Want to watch the podcasts on video? Visit TEAMES & CO on YouTube.
Learn how Collaborating Across Functions can help your teams achieve greater results.
Listen to Episode 23
Episode 23 Transcript
Tracy Eames (00:33):
Hi, everybody. Welcome to Building Teams with TEAMES & CO. Today, we're welcoming our guest, Catherine Hayes, who's an Enneagram expert and the acclaimed author of her book, Everything Is Going to Be Okay! Catherine, welcome to the show.
Catherine Hayes (00:48):
Thanks, Tracy Eames. Really happy to be here.
Tracy Eames (00:50):
We are thrilled to invite you. Catherine and I have known each other for years now, and I've been talking to her about the podcast for a while, so I’m very excited that she has accepted an invitation to speak with us today. I think she has lots of valuable information to share with us. Specifically, we'll be speaking a lot about the Enneagram and how teams can use that to help them build tighter connections and deliver more results, but first and foremost, Catherine, maybe you could share with the audience a little bit about your background and your journey.
Catherine Hayes (01:21):
Sure. Hi, everyone. Happy to be here. As Tracy Eames said, I wrote a book called Everything Is Going to Be Okay! and the subtitle of that is from the Projects to Harvard to Freedom, and that is actually the path of my Enneagram journey. As we talk about the Enneagram, we'll talk about the various types and how we can wake up from our kind of unconscious behavior.
Catherine Hayes (01:42):
My life was all about achieving, achieving, achieving until I had a life-changing accident, and it became much more of an inner journey and connecting to my heart. So the real goal of the Enneagram is to help us to see our patterns of behavior, and our Enneagram type, my teacher always said, is not who you are, it's who you are not, because it's that small part of us, our ego, and there's so much more to us. My hope is that today, people will get a sense of their own Enneagram type, but as importantly, understanding with a lot of compassion the Enneagram types of your team because the Enneagram is about compassion for yourself and for everyone around you, and some of those annoying behaviors can start to be something that you can hold more lightly and maybe find ways to mitigate and to overcome so that the team can work more cohesively.
Tracy Eames (02:33):
Catherine, I love the way that you phrased that, and I think it really speaks to your personality and how you think about these things. All of us in the business world have probably taken numerous types of these "tests," right? You have different letter combinations, "Am I an introvert?," "Am I an extrovert?”, "What's my communication style?," and I find sometimes you end up taking the kind of "test," but then nothing is done with it, right?
Catherine Hayes (02:55):
Tracy Eames (02:55):
It just kind of sits on a shelf or we do it once as a team, and then there's no real follow-up to it, and so to your point, we end up putting ourselves in these so to speak, boxes, but not actually taking that extra step. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about how you take that extra step, building that compassion and kind of help teams use the tool in a real-life way to actually make a difference for them.
Catherine Hayes (03:19):
Yes. I love that, because the Enneagram is different than assessments. First of all, it's an ancient wisdom. It's been around for thousands of years, and it's really not about pigeonholing people and saying, "This is your box, your type." It's, "Okay, this is the way you've kind of unconsciously had to develop an ego because every human being does."
Catherine Hayes (03:41):
It's part of being human, but now it's Okay, so how is that serving you and how is it not serving you, and what are your blind spots? You begin to kind of hold it more lightly, and so if anything, the Enneagram assessment is a starting point, so it really is something that can open you up, and if we think about ... I'm just going to use this little demonstration. Tell me if you can see it. Just think of this ... This is a blank slate.
Catherine Hayes (04:08):
For parents among us, we know when we hold an infant, they're just pure and innocent. They don't have an ego yet, but they have all the qualities. They have strength, they have compassion, they have joy, and what happens is, as we develop our ego, we start to kind of contract, and so maybe we hear mom and dad arguing, or we don't do well in school, and then we become this constricted ego or personality, and you can see all these constricted egos sitting around the boardroom, having discussions. Everyone's tight and defensive and reactive, so the Enneagram helps us to see, "What particular way are we defensive and reactive and how can we become more of the truth of who we are?" Now, you see all these lines, which is really wisdom and experience because as an adult, we can unfold and let go of those constrictions, and the Enneagram is a perfect path for that.
Mike Vaggalis (05:02):
I'm so excited to learn more about this. To Tracy Eames's point, I've taken several different personality tests of the number and letter combination variety, and to Tracy Eames's point, those were all done in prior roles and we sort of took the test and we had an hour conversation about it, and then set it aside to gather dust in a drawer - so I'm really excited to hear you explain the Enneagram in that way. I literally just took an Enneagram personality profile online, and even just the way that you're beginning to describe it is so intriguing, and I'm excited to learn how I can use it and how our listeners can use this tool to gain that wisdom that you're talking about.
Catherine Hayes (05:51):
Thanks. One of the most important things we can do in our leadership development and our working collaboratively is to understand ourselves, so the more we can understand ourselves and, "What are our buttons?," "What are our triggers?," and how we can hold ourselves more lightly and judge ourselves less, and also judge the people around us less and have more compassion for what's going on for them. For example, when someone is like a perfectionist. Well, why? What's underneath that, and then we can hold it more lightly.
Tracy Eames (06:25):
I think it's a great point, especially this year, right? We've all, in the last 12 to 16 months, had just a really difficult year. We've been facing challenges none of us were expecting, and they seem to come at us each day in a different way.
Catherine Hayes (06:40):
Tracy Eames (06:41):
I think you're kind of pointing out self-awareness is helpful, and being more authentic with your team can also help. I imagine I've never done the Enneagram test with, or the Enneagram approach with a team, but I imagine it creates room for those conversations that maybe people didn't have before, so maybe it's a quick call to your team to say, "Hey, just so you know, you might hear noise in the background because today, we're doing homeschooling," or, "If I have to rush out of this meeting, just know something ... There's this important family thing that's come up. I'll be right back," but I think one of the things I've seen teams, especially virtual teams do well this year, is adjust to each other and kind of make more room for that collision between work life and home life, and I think we've all kind of built, to your point, a little bit more compassion around that, but it sounds like this tool can help build that dialogue and give people a common language to approach those conversations. Would you say that's accurate?
Catherine Hayes (07:39):
I think it's really accurate. As you're describing the changes that we've all experienced this past year and when we have our virtual meetings, I think one of the things we're seeing is we've always talked about work-life balance, but now we're really seeing work-life integration, right? If the child needs help with their math problem or logging on, you're going to take that. You're a person who has many aspects, and so the more we can see each other as human beings, and not in a box or not judging people, the more we can work together in a way that is more collaborative, but also more human, you know?
Mike Vaggalis (08:17):
Catherine, I'm so curious, in your experience becoming an expert on the Enneagram, how have you progressed in your journey of viewing people, gaining compassion, gaining empathy, and then is it obvious to you when you see somebody who's not a self-reflective person?
Catherine Hayes (08:40):
Yes, that's a really good question. I think the most obvious thing is people's reactivity. One of the goals of self-awareness is to be less reactive. For example, I talked about someone who's a perfectionist. Think of another type that is very controlling. They have to be in charge all the time, but what's underneath that is that there's a real disconnect from their heart and they're afraid of being vulnerable, but really, when they show their vulnerability, that's when people connect with them, so there's a way that the Enneagram allows us to get a handle on our reactivity and to understand it and not judge it, but also to understand what's underneath some of those behaviors that might be otherwise annoying to us and our colleagues and say, "Gee, well, the reason that person is a perfectionist is really, there's a sense of like a disconnect from a sense of goodness, and they want to be good and they want to be seen as good," so we develop the sense of compassion for them, so I do.
Catherine Hayes (09:43):
The more we're in that tight, constricted state, the more reactive we are, the more our buttons get pushed, so the more we can kind of just take a breath, and even in the moment say, "Okay. I'm being triggered right now," Just take a breath, and instead of reacting, give yourself a break, give the other person a break and just carry on with the conversation in a way that's much more meaningful and productive.
Tracy Eames (10:08):
That's really valuable advice. I know you've worked with a lot of different teams using the Enneagram. Maybe you could share a story or two. Obviously, we totally respect confidentiality, so you don't need to name the team or the company, but maybe just give us a sense of kind of how you've taken them through this process, some of the results you've seen from them and give our listeners some examples of how this has come to life and your work.
Catherine Hayes (10:34):
The first example that comes to mind is, so I was working with two individuals in the same team and they were really having a hard time getting along, and they were both really wonderful people, and they had very different Enneagram types. One was what we call the enthusiast, that's the type 7. There are nine Enneagram types, and these nine types in theory, as I talked about this pure state of being, our pure state that we come in with as a child, the theory is that each of the nine types is formed in reaction to an aspect of that pure state being gone. So for example, when I talked about the perfectionist, when we hold an infant, they're good. There's nothing about them that isn't good.
Catherine Hayes (11:18):
The personality of that particularly Enneagram type, the type 1 is formed in reaction to all that goodness being taken away, so their whole life is about recreating the goodness. To get back to the example, one of the individuals is what we call the enthusiast, and what they're feeling the disconnect from ... again, this is unconscious. It's not like we even know this is happening, is a disconnect from a sense of freedom and joy, so they tend to be people who have great ideas and these ideas are always coming forward, and they're always kind of 10 steps ahead of everyone else. So it's really hard for people to keep up with them, and they get excited about all these ideas, but the way that appears to other people is if they're arrogant, and they don't care - and the other person was a type 6, which we call the loyalist. These are people who are very dutiful. They get the job done.
Catherine Hayes (12:11):
You can count on them completely, so there was a clash here between someone who's like, "Yeah. Everyone has to pull their weight," and someone who's kind of 10 steps ahead of everyone else, not because they were trying. That's just how they operate, so we actually had some difficult conversations, which I feel like a lot of us have lost that ability, to have the difficult conversation, but we sat and we had the difficult conversations, and instead of people taking things personally, because I was coaching them to try not to take it personally, but to hear it from the lens of compassion that, what that other person was feeling, we were really able to overcome this rift that had developed between the two of them and have them see the other more completely. Also realizing that their behavior was not about trying to be better than or arrogant or leave everyone in the dust, but they almost couldn't help it, and then the person who was really always running ahead, helping that person to slow down and wait for everyone to catch up, and don't feel like you've got to do it on your own. Bring people in. Have the conversation. It's really about self-awareness and an awareness of those who you're working with that the Enneagram is most useful for.
Mike Vaggalis (13:27):
Catherine, I'm so interested to hear ... We have those conversations a lot at TEAMES & CO, working with teams in helping to manage through healthy conflict, sometimes unhealthy conflict, sometimes people that won't engage in difficult conversations because they're fearful of conflict. What advice would you give in particular that last group? Maybe this 6 and 7, more engaging in the dialogue that they needed to have. How would you recommend that people engage in those difficult conversations and do so in a way that's productive and not combative?
Catherine Hayes (14:06):
It's a really, really good question. No one really likes conflict, although some people are more comfortable with it than others, but there's a particular Enneagram type that really doesn't like conflict, and they're called the peacemaker or the type 9. Their kind of underlying sense of how they see the world is that they always want to keep the connection, and so they tend to zip their lips and not speak up, but what happens is then eventually, that builds up a lot of resentment and they can blow up over someone like maybe leaving, didn't fill the paper tray in the copier or something. They really can blow up about something like that. I think the goal is to have the values of the team be authenticity, honesty, honest conversations, and really sit, and I think both people have to make a commitment to not be reactive so that the truth can be spoken in a way that is meaningful and productive.
Catherine Hayes (15:05):
One of the things that we've looked at in the Enneagram too is, how do the Enneagram types manage conflict and disagreement? There's three main categories, and I would say if you walk away with nothing else today, this is the thing to walk away with, the nugget. Three of the Enneagram types, the types 2, 7 and 9, the helper, the enthusiast, the peacemaker, they come into conflict with the positive outlook. They will always talk about what's working, and they don't necessarily get to the issue at hand. It's like in a workshop, I say the positive outlook types get along great until the day of the divorce, because they've never talked about anything. The second group are people that really have to get everything out on the table, the types 4, 6 and 8, and then the last group are the people that really want to get things resolved, the competency types, the types 1, 3 and 5.
Catherine Hayes (15:56):
Now, at most, if you have two people, you're going to have at most two of those perspectives, but here's the thing, we need to bring all three perspectives in if we're going to get things resolved. We need to look at what's working, we need to get everything out on the table, and we need to have a commitment to getting it resolved. So I think if authenticity is an important value; respect, honesty, when we bring all that into our discussions, we can get things resolved in the best manner. We can't control anyone else's behaviors. We can only control our own, so self-awareness and being less reactive will help us to have those conversations.
Tracy Eames (16:36):
What we see a lot is, when you have those difficult conversations, it usually causes a lot of stress not having them, because everybody's kind of walking on eggshells around each other.
Catherine Hayes (16:47):
Tracy Eames (16:48):
They're not sure what they should be saying, but actually, once you take the time, and to your point, doing it in a very productive way, having those team conversations allows you to build more trust in the team, and you then as a part of that team feel like, "Okay. I know my team members better. They know me better. I feel like I can lean on them in a whole new way that maybe I didn't feel like I could lean on them before," and we find it's really helpful, especially in years like this year, where you're always adjusting to change. You can have those conversations in a meaningful way, so once you've had the big conversation, those small conversations become just a normal part of your process, right?
Tracy Eames (17:25):
To your point, you can say, "Hey, you know what? Right now, I just need a little bit of space to think about this. Can you give me a little time, and I'll come back to you?," but that becomes much less kind of triggering for everybody because it's a norm that you've built within your team, and so I really liked that approach of kind of getting through those bigger, tougher conversations, again, in a really productive manner, but then, that kind of sets the stage for that open dialogue and it allows teams to innovate more because they can have those discussions. They can throw ideas out, right? You can be more agile because you're like, "Hey, why don't we try it this way?," and nobody's like, "Oh, that's a terrible idea."
Tracy Eames (18:03):
It was like, "All right, it's worth a shot, right? If it doesn't work, we'll go to something else," so I do. I like it as a framework and as a kind of nice starting place for the team.
Catherine Hayes (18:13):
Yes, and I love that you used the word trust, because these kinds of conversations will build that trust, and the more we can have these conversations, be respectful and be honest, the more trust is going to be built in the team, and when we have that, that helps teams to be much more productive and to work peacefully together.
Tracy Eames (18:33):
I think knowing everybody's kind of approach is really helpful. You referenced a couple of the Enneagram types. Maybe you could kind of walk us through those types and kind of how it's all structured. I know in the past, we've spoken about Enneagrams, and there's your main type and maybe some wings, and I know that it's hard to probably explain in a quick podcast, but maybe you could just give our listeners a little bit of an overview of some of the key points.
Catherine Hayes (18:58):
Sure. Happy to do that. One of the things about the Enneagram, one of the first things is that it's divided into three centers, the head center, the heart center and the body or belly center. I'm going to start with the body center, and those types are the types 8, 9 and 1, and there's kind of a theme to each center, and the theme of this center is autonomy. It's kind of like don't mess with me, and it's very unconscious and they do it in different ways.
Catherine Hayes (19:24):
The first Enneagram type in that center is called the type 8 or the challenger. They're sometimes called the boss. Now, their autonomy comes from a sense of, they bring strength. When we go back to that discussion about what is the Enneagram type formed in reaction to, so the type 8 is in reaction to being cut off from strength, so they tend to be strong people. They're trying to recreate that strength all the time.
Catherine Hayes (19:50):
They tend to have a big presence. They tend to really struggle with being vulnerable, but the key is actually, when they do show their vulnerability, they actually really connect to their team. Now, they're very good leaders, especially when they're at their best, and I should point out that there are nine Enneagram types, but there's also nine levels of development within each type. Most of us hang out kind of at the average levels, which means that our personality is present and it's there and it's running the show to a certain extent, but it's not the only thing that's there.
Catherine Hayes (20:30):
The higher we up the levels, the less the personality has a hold on us. The lower down the levels we go, the more the personality has a hold on us. So we can think of it this way, as we're down the levels of health, we're more reactive, so where type 8, they bring on this sense of strength, but when they can connect to heart, they are wonderful leaders because they have both the strength and the heart, and so that's kind of something for type 8s to really remember. The type 9, which is also in that center, referred to as the peacemaker, this is the one that I said a moment ago, really doesn't like conflict at all. Their autonomy really comes from a sense of, they can kind of pull back from the world when things are getting a little too heated or too tough. Say there could be a fire outside and they're like, "Could you please pass the salt?"
Catherine Hayes (21:16):
They don't necessarily want to look at what's going on, so on a team, they would be the ones that maybe, unless they're really healthy, they would be the ones that tend to ignore problems as they occur, and that's not a great thing because we need to address things. So the more they can be aware that that's a tendency they have, the more they can work with that.
Tracy Eames (21:37):
Catherine Hayes (21:37):
Also, in this body, instinctive belly center is the type 1. They're often called the perfectionist or the judge, and they have this sense of really trying to create a sense of goodness within themselves and the world around them. We think of a very healthy, healthy type 1 is Mahatma Gandhi. They have this real passion for truth and justice, and they want to fix the world. Now, at their best, they do that in service to others.
Catherine Hayes (22:03):
When they're not at their best, they tend to be chess masters and nothing's ever quite right, so that's the belly center. Move to the heart center, the predominant ... The theme here is more how I want to be seen, so that's types 2, 3 and 4. The type 2, we call them the helper. These are people who always are helping everyone else.
Catherine Hayes (22:24):
When I work with these types, I say, "Put your oxygen mask on first because you can't be very helpful to other people if you're not taking care of yourself". So the red flag here is to watch out when you're getting resentful because you're helping everyone on the team, but no one's doing anything for you, so the goal is to have that balance. The type 3, also in the heart center, is the overachiever. They tend to want to shine and they tend to do a lot. They're busy, busy, busy, and because they're getting their kind of value from the outside world, instead of inherently believing that they have that value intrinsically within themselves, the type 4 in the center, these are called the individualist, and when we go back to that kind of blank slate that I was talking about a moment ago, we think of an infant.
Catherine Hayes (23:16):
An infant doesn't have a sense of being separate from their mom or the world, but they have some sense that they're little Suzie or little Mike or whatever. They have an identity. The type 4 personality is formed around the sense of not having an identity, so they tend to be people who connect to their story, "Oh, I'm the one who's adopted," or, "I'm the outcast," or they tend to feel like they don't fit in and don't belong, so they tend to develop kind of a unique style. These could be the people like maybe with the purple hair or a Bohemian look to them, because they need to stand out in some way. What can be challenging for them is that they tend to really feel things very deeply, and so they bring a lot of that forward, which is often very necessary, but can be challenging for people in the team. The head center, types 5, 6 and 7, their predominant theme is about really wanting to understand things.
Catherine Hayes (24:10):
They're in their head a lot so they have anxiety because they're thinking, thinking, thinking. They're also really, really smart, so for example a type 5, we call them the investigator, and they tend to dive really deeply into details, but they tend not to speak up a lot at the team. These are people that tend to hold back, but as soon as they say something, it's usually absolutely brilliant and it's exactly what the team needs. Type 6 is called the loyalist.
Catherine Hayes (24:39):
They will never let you down. They are very dutiful. They are the glue that holds the team together. They are the ones saying, "Look, we've got a deadline. We've got to get this done," and a lot of that is coming from their anxiety of needing certainty in the world.
Catherine Hayes (24:53):
Then, the type 7s, we call the enthusiasts, and I spoke about them a moment ago, and they are the ones that seem to be the life of the party. They're always happy, but underneath it all is this sense of, they kind of have one foot in and one foot out, like, "Is there something better around the corner?," but they're really, really smart people. They tend to be visionaries, but they tend to generate ideas, but they don't necessarily like to have a plan and operationalize those ideas, so they're great to have on the team, but you need a good 6 right there with them to work out the details. That's a really, really quick journey around the Enneagram.
Catherine Hayes (25:31):
There's wonderful books about the Enneagram that I encourage people - if you're really interested in this, to really have workshops at your workplace and have people talk to your team about it and have people understand themselves because this tool can be an excellent tool for teams to really work.
Tracy Eames (25:51):
I think that's a great overview. I'm sure all of us can, kind of at a surface level, try to pinpoint where we fall on the map and also start to think about folks on our team. The nice thing that I was picking up on what you were saying, is I think it goes back to your original point, which is there's an area of kind of improvement, and also an area to kind of give us all a little bit of freedom to live within our style, right? Like on any given day, it kind of recognizes that there's going to be days that we're more stressed out, and maybe our style comes out a little bit more, or there's going to be days that are a little bit easier and maybe we're a little bit more laid back. I like that permission to kind of live within a breathing kind of living style versus you're in this very strict box and you're always going to react in this way. So for me, just thinking through it, it seems much more approachable as a tool for teams than maybe some other tools I've seen in the past, but talking about or speaking about books that include wisdom on the Enneagram, obviously I want to kind of return to your book, and folks can find it online at Amazon.
Tracy Eames (26:58):
We'll include the link, but the thing I've really enjoyed in reading your book was it spoke to your journey, which is a really, really fantastic story about how you moved through life, you learned about yourself, you took this self-awareness and kind of sharing that with folks. I think it takes a tremendous amount of courage, and also weaves in the story of the Enneagram. That's what I really loved about it, because it was kind of that journey of going through your life journey, but also kind of learning about this tool and how that's kind of helped you realize things. Maybe you could just tell us a little bit about idea of the book and what was writing the book like for you?
Catherine Hayes (27:37):
Yes. Thanks for that. It's interesting because when I wrote the book, I didn't just want to tell my story because it's not like I'm some famous person that people want to learn about my story, but I felt that my story was something that could help people. I'm a teacher at heart. I've been a professor for most of my life, and I wanted to help people to learn about the Enneagram and how it could help them in their lives. So in my book, I do talk about the Enneagram types and I give exercises for reflection, and my hope is that people will be able to, at the end of reading the book, have a sense of what their type might be, but also as importantly, have a sense of the types of maybe the people around them, their family members, their colleagues so that the goal really is to live more peacefully, to live truthfully, authentically and more peacefully.
Catherine Hayes (28:30):
As we were talking about earlier, the work-life integration, we are who we are everywhere we go, at work, at home, and now that these days that is we don't move from one to the other, so it's kind of a reminder of we are who we are, and we don't have to change who we are at the workplace. What would be more valuable is to really understand who we are, appreciate who we are, try to grow in a way that brings peace to ourselves, and as we bring peace to ourselves, we bring peace to the people around us.
Tracy Eames (29:03):
It's a fantastic way to look at it. Thinking through that, one of the things that I - again, I will differ from you a little bit. I think your life has been quite impressive, and I think diving into the book really shows a personal journey and a lot of things that I got to learn about you and about your life's journey, but I think it takes - unfortunately, in today's world, there's not a lot of people who are willing to share their stories, and I think opening up and giving people that roadmap to say, "Hey, this doesn't have to be your journey, but this was my journey, and here's how the Enneagram fits in," I think is a really nice way to approach it.
Tracy Eames (29:41):
It starts to open up that there's not a right way or a wrong way. I think a lot of times with these styles, as we've talked about, people are like, "Well, which style is the best? Which style should I be?" It's not about like, "Oh, one style is better than the other," it's just that, "Hey, there's lots of different unique people."
Tracy Eames (30:00):
We all approach the world in a different way. Even within our styles, we have some variability, and that's a nice way to approach it because it gives us, to your point, the ability to live authentically, and it gives us that chance to sort of say, "Hey, these are some things I've noticed about myself and learned about myself, and maybe things I've learned about the people who I work with or the people in my family or my friends," but it doesn't have to be this like static kind of approach. It's more of that journey, and that's what I really connected to with your book - kind of going through the journey and seeing how it evolves over time. I thought that was a really nice perspective.
Catherine Hayes (30:38):
I think that journey piece is so important because, especially in the workplace, people are often used to these assessments that kind of label them, and the Enneagram is all about the journey. It is about when you learn about your Enneagram type, that's the beginning of the journey. When you talked about it isn't static, we can move up these levels of development, and I would often get the question, "Well, what are the most compatible Enneagram types?," and it's healthy. It doesn't matter what your type is.
Catherine Hayes (31:10):
There's no one type that's better than the other. What's the most important thing is that we do our best to be as self-aware and kind and compassionate as we can be, and so a healthy version of a type 1 and a healthy version of any other type, that's what's compatible.
Tracy Eames (31:27):
We always say this because we tend to use a lot of sports analogies because that's what people think of when they think of teams. We always say you can't have five point guards, right? The nice thing about a team is having a diversity of perspective, a diversity of skills, a diversity of approaches, and I think this leaves the room for that. We had a previous guest, a gentleman, Brett Hampson, who was speaking to us around being a finance leader, and one of the things he was talking about was having his team double-check their own work. Before a team member gives it to him or to the senior leaders, they would ask their team members like, "Hey, can you just take a look at this?"
Tracy Eames (32:03):
"Can you see if I'm missing anything?" I think that's where this trust comes in. If you can look to your team member and say, "Hey, my strength isn't details. Can you just take a quick look at this and see if I've overlooked any spots or I have a piece missing?," or likewise, if you're not the strategic thinker, that's not a bad thing because we need the detail-oriented people. Well, you can have somebody who's more strategic that other person who's kind of the 10 steps ahead type say, "Hey, maybe here's some other things you could think about that may be coming down the path so you can build them in as future possibilities to your proposal."
Tracy Eames (32:38):
You don't have to answer all the questions, but it'll help the leadership kind of have an idea of maybe what comes next. That's what's really great about thinking about how the team comes together, so it doesn't have to be, "Oh, I really want to be a type 2," or, "I really want to be a type 4 or 6," whatever it is, but it's more of, "Hey, as a type 6 or 7 or 8, I have these strengths, and I can also work with the people on my team who are types 1, 2, 3, whatever the numbers are, who have a different strength, and we can be more compatible as a team and achieve more together," so it's fun to think about it that way.
Catherine Hayes (33:13):
Yes, I totally agree, and the more we can appreciate the need for that balance and that variety in a team, the more functional the team will be.
Tracy Eames (33:22):
Exactly. Well, are there other thoughts that you want to share with our listeners today about the Enneagram or resources or tips or kind of ways that you think would be helpful to include it in their work?
Catherine Hayes (33:34):
I think the Enneagram is really a wonderful tool for personal and professional development, and I hope that people will take this information and bring it to their workplace. There's a wonderful website called the Enneagraminstitute.com. They have a lot of information on there as well, in addition to the book, as you mentioned, so I hope that people will take this information and begin their own Enneagram journey.
Tracy Eames (33:58):
I love it, and thank you so much for being on the podcast today. Since I do know Catherine and I've known her for a while, we often talk about the Enneagram, and it's always very funny because I sometimes forget my type, and so I'm always like, "Hey, can we talk through this?," or, "How could I approach this?," and it's nice having an Enneagram expert to always be able to ask questions to and kind of get some advice as you're moving through all these processes. We here at TEAMES & CO will definitely do a bit more research on it, and look forward to hearing from you in the future. For our guests, we will definitely include to links to it, in our show notes so they can learn more about the book and about the Enneagram Institute. Again, we can't thank you enough for spending your afternoon with us today, Catherine.